The future of cars..

"Torque Affair" (torqueaffair)
04/22/2014 at 13:19 • Filed to: None

Is this the future?

No engine noise, just tire noise and the whirring of electric engines?

How will cars like this change the world of auto enthusiasts like us?

DISCUSSION (34)

Party-vi > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:22

Teslas are a lot of money.

Auto enthusiasts don't have a lot of money.

Ergo, Teslas will not change the world of auto enthusiasts.

RotaryLover > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:25

It's the future for gangstas!

CAcoalminer > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 13:25

I don't think he's specifically talking about Teslas, just using them as an example. Just like anything else, when mass production of electric cars begins they will definitely come down in price.

CAcoalminer > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:30

I think it's a great thing. Any car that can provide a smooth, quiet ride to work while still being plenty powerful for those certain moments is something I fully endorse.

Mark - Sixpots None The Richer > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:41

To be honest, on day to day basis I welcome the quiet electric cars. I live in a street were 15,000 cars pass through every day so I know how annoying "normal" cars are. And even when driving myself a quiet car is nice and relaxing.

It's the "hobby car guy" in me that is scared of losing the entertainment value of noise. But a far more intelligent person than me compared cars with combustion engines to horses. Horses didn't just disappear when the automobile took over. Instead riding them became a rather common hobby.

A good example is the H-Plate used in Germany. Original vintage cars that are over 30 years old can get such a plate and enjoy significant tax and insurance benefits as long as you don't use them on a daily basis. This makes the the cost of petrol and parts a bit more bearable if you own a classic car.

So, I think combustion engines will be around for a while for us enthusiasts to enjoy while we all profit from a quieter environment on the whole.

Torque Affair > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 13:42

You're right, they are expensive now. But Tesla is coming out with a cheaper version. I was mainly referring to how we will have to shift our tastes along with disruption in the auto industry.

Torque Affair > CAcoalminer
04/22/2014 at 13:42

Yep, exactly right.

Torque Affair > CAcoalminer
04/22/2014 at 13:43

The instant torque from these motors is incredible. Flooring these cars from a stoplight is a ton of fun.

deekster_caddy > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:43

There is a large scale energy storage issue to resolve - right now batteries are doing their best made with very rare metals that are hard to get at scale. Research will eventually find a better way, either to synthesize the rare metals or to use a different chemistry. I have a Chevy Volt because I love the drive and the tech in the car, and that it still has a gas tank so I don't have to worry about the small battery. Most days I can drop off my kids at school and get to work and home without using any pump gas. But I do a lot more than that, so instead of infinity MPG, I'm averaging about 100.

edit - I see what the Volt has as the immediate future of electric/hybird/PHEV drivetrains as the EV infrastructure scales up and battery technology improves. What Tesla is doing is very cool, but their battery chemistry is not modern enough. That will all change in time.

CAcoalminer > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:46

Do you own one?

Torque Affair > CAcoalminer
04/22/2014 at 13:48

No I test drove one ...it is an amazing car. It's hard to believe how a startup like Tesla which almost had to shut down could build something like this.

CAcoalminer > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 13:50

Oh cool. Yes, what they have done with the car is very impressive.

Torque Affair > deekster_caddy
04/22/2014 at 13:50

The battery situation will be an obstacle like you mentioned. I've heard great things about the Volt - what do you think keeps it from being more popular?

deekster_caddy > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 14:00

The drive is amazing. It has two major issues holding it back - one is the political fallout. It's the "Obamacar" and crap. I think that's fading away but some people won't let that go. (It was actually Bush who approved the EV tax credit).

Number 2 is that most people don't understand it. It can be very simple, i.e. you don't need to understand it. You can just drive it. Plug it in when you can, put gas in it when you need it. It's that simple. But there is so much more going on that people are overwhelmed by the thought of it all. GM's marketing is absolutely horrible when it comes to this.

Jayhawk Jake > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 14:07

Eh, have you ever really noticed engine noise out of normal cars anyways?

Go stand at the curb and watch traffic go by. Unless your neighborhood is full of ricers or people driving muscle cars, it hardly sounds any louder than a Tesla these days.

I'd take batshit crazy electric performance at the expense of sound any day.

Jayhawk Jake > deekster_caddy
04/22/2014 at 14:11

The problem is the 'range anxiety' myth.

People freak out about electric range. The Volt only goes 40 miles on electric. Yes, people like us know that it has the generator and can go as far as you want, but the public doesn't see that.

The public sees the car and thinks 'I can ONLY drive FORTY miles?! How DARE the car tell me how far I can drive!'. Even the Model S with it's 240 mile range freaks people out.

With a gas car you just find the nearest gas station, which is typically easy, and fill up. Bam, 5 minutes and you're good for another 300 miles. Electric isn't there yet, and until it is electric cars won't take over.

Party-vi > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 14:17

Why would we shift our tastes? If anything, current enthusiasts will not shift tastes - new enthusiasts will incorporate electric vehicles into their culture (although for now it's "vehicle" since Tesla is the only exciting electric car company).

Party-vi > CAcoalminer
04/22/2014 at 14:29

The Volt and Leaf are available for purchase now and still list at over $30,000 MSRP. GM and Nissan have moved over 50,000 each of the Volt and Leaf. Tesla had sold over 20,000 Model S cars in the US as of last December - list on the 60-kWh is still over $70,000.

None of the cars currently sold (save the Teslas) are remotely enthusiast vehicles unless you're an electronics enthusiast. I don't think this is going to have much of an impact regardless of price. It's not like you see posts on here where Opponauts are pining for the day when they can own a 10-year old Tesla and watch the batteries go to shit.

BaconSandwich is tasty. > deekster_caddy
04/22/2014 at 14:40

On GM's Marketing: They have been doing a horrible job! A little while back my dad was roaming around a local mall and saw a Volt. The salesman said it was an electric car that could drive 400 km. My dad called the guy out on it, and the guys supposedly said "Well, that's what they've been telling us to say."

Either way, marketing is poor. Rather than stating "It has an electric range of 40 miles!" or "It's an electric car that can also go 400 km on gas!" they really should be saying "Cut your average gas costs by XX%!".

CAcoalminer > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 14:52

Well I'm sorry that they aren't Kia cheap yet but maybe one day they will be, I mean look at carbon fiber. At one time only the most expensive cars would dare to use it and yet we'll soon be able to purchase an i3 for less than $50,000. However, my explaining this to you is probably a waste of time, as you seem like the type of person who views electric cars as the second coming of the Great Plague.

Also, he's not saying you have to lust after them, he's simply asking how it will affect car enthusiasts. For instance, maybe instead of talking about putting bigger turbos on their cars, people will be talking about installing bigger electric motors and battery packs in the future. Also, I've seen plenty of people on Jalopnik that say that they wouldn't mind owning a Model S.

deekster_caddy > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 14:57

I do envision a future where third parties (or OEMs) might offer replacement batteries with newer battery technology to replace the worn out original batteries. The Volt is the only one I'm aware of with a liquid heating and cooling system for the battery. GM was very overprotective. There are some Volts on the road with 50K EV miles that aren't showing signs of battery degradation. GM's 8 yr 100K mile warranty says the battery will still have at least 70% of it's original life at that age. Still quite usable. Worst case scenario if the battery range becomes more like 40% of original is that it drives more like a hybrid and less like an EV.

Replacement batteries are costing the consumer on the order of $3000 for Volts I've heard of having their batteries replaced. How much does a typical engine or transmission rebuild cost? I've heard of transmission rebuilds being typically in the $2500+ area, and engine rebuilds in a similar price range. Granted today's engines are built differently and lasting a lot longer in general. Most engines can outlast the body on a modern car.

Party-vi > CAcoalminer
04/22/2014 at 15:03

$50,000 is still a very expensive car - not something your average person out of college can afford. Used I'm sure that's a different story, but we don't know the longevity of pure electric vehicles yet. I'm mostly concerned with battery replacement - if it's relatively easy to replace bum batteries and upgrade motors then I'm sure then auto enthusiasts will embrace electric cars, but I don't see that happening for a long time, or at least until every major manufacturer offers a pure-electric vehicle option for small, medium and full-size cars and there's an established network of quick-charging stations. Otherwise we'll still be using gas vehicles to make trips longer than 100 miles.

The Model S is a very nice car I'm sure, but there is a difference between "wouldn't mind owning" and "OMG TRACKING RESALE VALUE GOTTA HAVE A MODEL S!!!"

Also thanks for assuming I'm some backwards knuckle-dragging Neanderthal who hates technology just because I offer a different opinion.

Party-vi > deekster_caddy
04/22/2014 at 15:11

True. I think the average battery replacement might cost similar to engine replacement, assuming the Volt's battery is $3,000 and you've got the labor to remove the old one, install the new and then the disposal cost of the old battery (unless the suppler takes it back as a core). I'd guess the cost of labor to replace an EV battery would about equal the difference for the increased cost of a new gasoline engine.

CAcoalminer > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 15:19

I wasn't debating whether $50,000 is a lot of money or not, I was simply making the point that over time as technology is utilized for mass production its costs come down.

Also, once again, I don't think he's asking whether enthusiasts will lust after electric vehicles but simply how they will affect our lives. For instance, will people start considering buying an electric car rather than a Chevy Cruze (yes I know that their prices aren't close at this point but were talking about the future). You keep using current product offerings but this post is about the future, not the present.

My comment was based off of not what you said, but how you said it. I have no problem with people having differing opinions about the same subject. I just thought your tone and work choice like "watch the batteries go to shit" seemed indicative of someone who doesn't like electric vehicles at all.

Party-vi > CAcoalminer
04/22/2014 at 15:31

Speaking of the future, I think at the point where an electric car is offered at the same price point as a Chevy Cruze that a gasoline option won't exist anymore, unless it's substantially cheaper.

If I'm conveying any tone over these posts then I am more of an effective writer than I originally thought haha. It's not that I don't dislike electric cars - I'd love to have a Tesla Roadster, but as of now my commute is too far and recharge times are too long for it to be practical. Plus they're still too expensive for me still. I think that around the mileage and age I could afford one the battery pack might only hold a 60% charge, meaning the supposed 250 mile range would be cut down to about 150 or so miles.

deekster_caddy > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 16:41

The $3000 figure I heard included labor and they did want the core back for that price. I understand that GM has a deal with some remote power/generator provider who wants their old batteries to recondition and use for some advanced offline power system. http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/15/gm-…

Party-vi > deekster_caddy
04/22/2014 at 16:58

GM has MSRP for a replacement battery a t $2,994.64 before a discount of about $600. I'm not sure the $3,000 figure quoted earlier includes labor.

deekster_caddy > Jayhawk Jake
04/22/2014 at 17:05

I hear tires more than cars mostly. I have a Volt and the road noise from the tires is even more pronounced. I just put on some much quieter tires and it's changed the whole car. The OEM LRR tires are very loud for some reason.

Torque Affair > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 19:33

Well, since exhaust sound won't be a factor anymore, we would place more emphasis on perhaps looks and ride quality? But this could be more of a personal thing since I'm a big fan of how a V8 sounds.

Torque Affair > Jayhawk Jake
04/22/2014 at 19:35

That's what I'm thinking too. Tesla has already proved what could be done and we're barely scratching the surface. Excited to see what else is around the corner with performance electric cars.

Party-vi > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 19:36

If exhaust noise were gone (assuming there are no more gas cars), I'd make a loud-ass motor. Wanna hear dat whine!

Torque Affair > deekster_caddy
04/22/2014 at 19:36

I think tire manufacturers will have pay a lot more attention to road noise when we have much quieter cars before too long.

Torque Affair > Party-vi
04/22/2014 at 19:37

Yep, that's definitely an option!

Jayhawk Jake > Torque Affair
04/22/2014 at 21:15

Very true. I suspect they are already being pushed to do so with the popularity of the Model S.